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Fensterkind
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Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 75

    10/02/08 at 10:36 AM
Reply with quote#1

In 1970, comics cost $0.12 and the minimum wage was $1.60 an hour.  So, a minimum wage slave had to work for 4.8 minutes to buy your average comic book, which cost about 8% of the hourly wage.

If comic books remain at their current price of $2.99 next year when the new minimum wage of $7.25 takes effect, a wage slave must work 24.8 minutes to buy one, since the price will be exactly 41.3 % of his hourly wage.

In 1970, you could easily spend more than 4.8 minutes reading a comic.  It is impossible to spend 24.8 minutes reading one of today's comics, unless your reading skills are really poor.

Does glossy paper and great production values really make today's books a better value than the newsprint books of 1970?

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"-Yet one cannot give that which has not been created. Creation comes before distribution - or there will be nothing to distribute. The Need of the creator comes before the need of any possible beneficiary. The creator stands above any humanitarian.

- No humanitarian ever has or can equal the benefits men recieved from a Thomas Edison or a Henry Ford."
-Any Rand, July 12, 1943
AnotherJeff
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    10/02/08 at 12:24 PM
Reply with quote#2

Cool analysis.  I think the improvement in quality does dictate the large increase in the relative cost, but, man, seeing it on paper is kinda depressing.


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Fensterkind
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    10/02/08 at 03:35 PM
Reply with quote#3

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherJeff

Cool analysis.  I think the improvement in quality does dictate the large increase in the relative cost, but, man, seeing it on paper is kinda depressing.

To be honest, I'm not entirely sold on the idea that the quality has really improved, except superficially.  Today's books are full of sizzle, but not a lot of steak.  How many times you picked up a book that was full of pages with no more than 3 panels and perhaps a total number of 10 words or less for the entire page?  The panels may be gorgeous to look at, but is that really telling a story?  You can pick up any ESSENTIALS or SHOWCASE collection of comics from the early '70's and see the difference between those books and the ones we're getting today.

It all boils down to one essential difference.  Then, story was primary concern.  Today, it's the art.  It's all eye - candy and very little else.  Even my favorite books - "Walking Dead", "House of Mystery", "Fables" etc. - seem a bit "thin" compared to the books I was reading when I was a kid.

And folks need to remember that artists like Wood, Williamson, Toth, Adams, Wrightson, Kaluta, etc., made their mark during the newsprint era.  Sure, they would have looked terrific with today's methods, but even with the standards of the time, they still managed to look damn good.

__________________
"-Yet one cannot give that which has not been created. Creation comes before distribution - or there will be nothing to distribute. The Need of the creator comes before the need of any possible beneficiary. The creator stands above any humanitarian.

- No humanitarian ever has or can equal the benefits men recieved from a Thomas Edison or a Henry Ford."
-Any Rand, July 12, 1943
tedsalinger
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SOUTH of HEAVEN
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 4,520

    10/02/08 at 06:43 PM
Reply with quote#4

I'll go for the higher grade ( glossy ) paper anyday over the old newsprint.
It's even effected my reading of older back issues which are all on newsprint.
It makes my skin crawl.
I remember my first 'ALL-Glossy-Paper' comic was MARVEL FANFARE #1 with art by Mike Golden. It was the bees knees.
Bernie Wrightson just finished one of my favorite mini-series so far this year; DEAD, SHE SAID. And that is some high quality, glossy, dipped in honey paper and it was a beaut. Also, the story didn't take a backseat to the art at all.

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ted sallinger
Fensterkind
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Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 75

    10/02/08 at 07:11 PM
Reply with quote#5

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedsalinger
I'll go for the higher grade ( glossy ) paper anyday over the old newsprint.
It's even effected my reading of older back issues which are all on newsprint.
It makes my skin crawl.
I remember my first 'ALL-Glossy-Paper' comic was MARVEL FANFARE #1 with art by Mike Golden. It was the bees knees.

Personally, I hate glossy paper for comics.  The gloss reflecting light back into the reader's eye's detracts from the quality of the artwork.  A whiter, matte grade of paper, such as used in Vertigo's books, seems the better way to go.  You still have the solid range of color gradation and saturation without that annoying sheen.

However, I think it's a complete waste of money to use glossy paper for black and white comics.  A good grade of newsprint gives excellent reproduction of B&W art, as can be seen in the ESSENTIALS and SHOWCASE collections, as well as any Warren back issue.

__________________
"-Yet one cannot give that which has not been created. Creation comes before distribution - or there will be nothing to distribute. The Need of the creator comes before the need of any possible beneficiary. The creator stands above any humanitarian.

- No humanitarian ever has or can equal the benefits men recieved from a Thomas Edison or a Henry Ford."
-Any Rand, July 12, 1943
tedsalinger
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    10/02/08 at 10:36 PM
Reply with quote#6

But my fingers are so tender. I've just become adjusted to the current grade of most paper that are used in comics.
Sometimes though, I feel that there are different grades of paper even when it's a black and white book. Dark Horse Presents never rubbed me the wrong way as opposed to, say an early issue of Peter Parker;Spectacular Spiderman
printed in color.
If the glare of light on high quality-gloss paper irritates you, just move.
In one sense, however, with high-gloss paper, I've actually left my own fingerprints on the book...at times thet are very visable. Even new books on the shelf at times have the C&C crews fingerprints on them from when they read them on Tuesdays.

 


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ted sallinger
AnotherJeff
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    10/03/08 at 07:16 AM
Reply with quote#7

Quote:
To be honest, I'm not entirely sold on the idea that the quality has really improved, except superficially.  Today's books are full of sizzle, but not a lot of steak...It all boils down to one essential difference.  Then, story was primary concern.  Today, it's the art.  It's all eye - candy and very little else.


Do you really think the quality of writing hasn't improved since the 70's?  Sometimes I cringe when reading Essentials of favorites from childhood (I still haven't made it through a few, i.e. Iron Fist). What I love about comics today is that there seems to be more instances of the writing and art coming together to produce something wonderful.  In the 70's, in my opinion it was almost always an either/or proposition.  Today, even in cases in which a writer or artist isn't necessarily my cup of tea, I can be wowed (Scalped or Criminal) by the total package because I think most of the guys take their profession more seriously and are truly trying to create art.  Once again this is just my opinion, but most of the comics back in the 70's seemed to be churned out to appeal to kids buying their Slurpees.  That wasn't necessarily a bad thing, mind you.  

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Fensterkind
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Posts: 75

    10/03/08 at 10:05 AM
Reply with quote#8

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherJeff
Do you really think the quality of writing hasn't improved since the 70's Sometimes I cringe when reading Essentials of favorites from childhood (I still haven't made it through a few, i.e. Iron Fist).
 


Yes and no.  Certainly, today's books have far more freedom to tackle issues and subjects that were forbidden 30 years ago, due to the comics code.  Granted, there was a lot of drek out there, and books that started strong often turned to swill once the original creative team departed (The Frankenstein Monster & Werewolf by Night being prime examples).  Like you, I've had some nasty awakenings where some of my old favorites are concerned, especially "War of the Worlds" / "Killraven" which I loved as a kid but find completely unreadable today.  However, you must also admit that some incredible books came out at that time that still hold up today.  "Swamp Thing", "Man - Thing", "Howard the Duck", "The Tomb of Dracula" and others were high - water marks for the medium, and are still largely unchallenged today.


Quote:
What I love about comics today is that there seems to be more instances of the writing and art coming together to produce something wonderful.  In the 70's, in my opinion it was almost always an either/or proposition. 


Agreed, except for examples such as I've already listed.

Quote:
Today, even in cases in which a writer or artist isn't necessarily my cup of tea, I can be wowed (Scalped or Criminal) by the total package because I think most of the guys take their profession more seriously and are truly trying to create art. 


And therein lies much of the problem, this pursuit of Art with a capital "A".  The pursuit of cartoonists today is to create a precious object, something that will become a mylar - bagged commodity rather than entertainment for it's own sake.  I used to swim in the brackish waters of the world of Fine Art, and I'm familiar with this impulse.  Comics no longer are concerned so much with entertaining than they are with getting "respect" - whatever that means - and so we're getting all of these over - produced comics that are great to look at, but not so engaging to read.

As a lapsed painter, I can tell you that "Art" is usually a complete accident, and those who actively pursue it rarely - if ever - produce it.  Cartoonists like Eisner and Barks were not pursuing Art but craft; their goal was to tell the best stories they possibly could within the constraints of the medium at the time.  In the process, they blundered into Art.

Is the latest issue of "X - Men" really better than what they achieved and on a fairly consistant basis?  Personally, I don't think even my favorite titles can compare.

Quote:
Once again this is just my opinion, but most of the comics back in the 70's seemed to be churned out to appeal to kids buying their Slurpees.  That wasn't necessarily a bad thing, mind you.  


God bless those little rug rats and their Slurpees!   They kept the industry alive for many a year.

I think my original point may be getting lost here, so let me try and clarify what I'm getting at: 

Let me put it this way:  In every entertainment medium, there is a cost / entertainment ratio that cannot be crossed by producers without running the risk of turning off the public.  This ratio is different for each medium and the higher the threshold, the higher amount of garbage will be present.  For example, conventional broadcast television in America is considered to be "free" to the public, since no fee is charged to watch.  As a result, the public will watch almost anything that the networks put out.  The threshold there is incredibly high, which explains why "Ugly Betty" outperforms "Smallville".  For Movies, where there is a fee that the public must pay, the threshold is lower and, theoretically, a long film with a huge budget would give better value than a short inexpensive one.  This is clearly not always the case.  "Waterworld" performed less well at the box office than "The Blair Witch Project".  In short, the lower the cost / entertainment ratio, the more important content becomes and extravagant production values don't always guarantee success.
 
For comics, the threshold is incredibly low.  This has been true since the industry's creation and it's just the nature of the medium.  When comics cost $0.12, they were a great value for the money and even the least successful books were selling over 100,000 copies each month.  As prices increased, they began approaching the medium's threshold and sales began declining.  This decline has persisted in spite of publisher's efforts to "tart up" the medium with increasingly up - scale production values. 
 
A glaring example of this was IDW's recent horror anthology, "Doomed".  For those who missed it, "Doomed" was an attempt to revive the horror comics magazine genre that flourished in the '60's and '70's.  It even shared superficial similarities to Warren's horror line, at least in terms of it's format.  Having been a huge fan of that genre, I had high hopes for it's success when I first heard about it.  However, as soon as I saw the actual product I knew that - pardon the pun - "Doomed" was doomed!
 
Right off the bat it violated the cost / entertainment ratio by costing far too much for a black and white magazine.  At $7.99 per issue, the average comics reader had to work an hour or more to buy it.  IDW chose to print the book using a heavy card stock that was completely unnecessary to present the artwork which was, to be bluntly honest, minimal and often ugly and amateurish.  None of it looked as good as the most indifferent issue put out by Warren twenty years earlier and a decent grade of newsprint would have served just as well.  In short, you had an over - priced magazine that made a weak impression on the stands.  Anyone could have foreseen it's failure to find an audience.
 
Let's face it: Comics today look spectacular compared to their more cheaply - produced predecessors, yet they sell a fraction of what they used to, and many publishers are now making the bulk of their income on licensing and reprint collections rather than on individual comic sales.  As far as the public is concerned, comics long ago crossed the cost / entertainment threshold and a year's worth of "free comic book days" won't bring them back.
 
So, that leads to the obvious question:  What is the current cost / entertainment threshold for comics, at least as far as the general public is concerned?  It's hard to say, although it's a given that we'll never see the 8% cost again, at least in this country.  At a guess, I would speculate that a target of 30% of the minimum wage is what publishers should shoot for where standard comic books are concerned.  The target can be higher for magazines, although not to the ridiculous extreme attempted by IDW with "Doomed".

__________________
"-Yet one cannot give that which has not been created. Creation comes before distribution - or there will be nothing to distribute. The Need of the creator comes before the need of any possible beneficiary. The creator stands above any humanitarian.

- No humanitarian ever has or can equal the benefits men recieved from a Thomas Edison or a Henry Ford."
-Any Rand, July 12, 1943
geoff
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Posts: 870

    10/06/08 at 12:39 AM
Reply with quote#9

Wow, Fensterkind, you're bringing out my inner economist!!

Speaking purely subjectively, I seem to have been able to buy a lot of great comics when I was a kid and had a $0.50/ hour job. (Yes, it was "off the books"-- but we can just assume an allowance or whatever.)

So I could work 4 hours and get 8 comics. And Mike Grell was big then! And Frank Robbins! (Yes, my favorite artists when I was a little kid were Grell, Starlin, Robbins, Kirby, and Colan.)

Losing the train...

Ted, I'm with ya. A large part of the reason I recently sold most of my comics was the horrible realization that I hated looking at anything printed before, I dunno, 1988? (Except Warlock-- sold it anyway.) Anybody here remember Baxter? Yikes.

Today's shiny paper books? They make me feel like I should be wearing gloves. Hate that. 'Specially those Hellboys--they're all black!!

I'd like to come back to this, but briefly, I caught a little flack here over my recent decision to f it and just buy trade collections. Economics plays into it a lot. Lessee, I can get the first six issues of (say) All Star Superman for $12.99, less 20% off if I ask for it in advance. So, ten bucks for 6 comics I can put on my bookshelf versus $18.00 (OK, minus the 20%-- $16.00) for 6 individual fragile issues that won't be lying around my house separately getting vomited on by cats and would never appreciate in value anyway. Seems QED to me.


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geoff
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    10/06/08 at 12:43 AM
Reply with quote#10

Crap, I forgot Marshall Rogers!!! And Frank Brunner!
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Fensterkind
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Posts: 75

    10/06/08 at 05:51 AM
Reply with quote#11

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff
Wow, Fensterkind, you're bringing out my inner economist!!

Speaking purely subjectively, I seem to have been able to buy a lot of great comics when I was a kid and had a $0.50/ hour job. (Yes, it was "off the books"-- but we can just assume an allowance or whatever.)

So I could work 4 hours and get 8 comics. And Mike Grell was big then! And Frank Robbins! (Yes, my favorite artists when I was a little kid were Grell, Starlin, Robbins, Kirby, and Colan.)

I never got into Grell, since he hit big at a time when I had given up comics - with the exception of "Heavy Metal" & "Epic Illustrated".  Fortunately, the rest had been working before that happened, and I agree whole - heartedly with the rest of your list.

Quote:
Ted, I'm with ya. A large part of the reason I recently sold most of my comics was the horrible realization that I hated looking at anything printed before, I dunno, 1988? (Except Warlock-- sold it anyway.) Anybody here remember Baxter? Yikes.


GASP!  You sold your Warlocks?  Go to your room this instant, young man!

But, seriously, I do agree that going back and looking at those old issues can be a disappointing experience.  Books that looked great to me when I bought them do look dingy and shabby today, but it's important to remember that we had nothing to compare them to back then.  And some books did look better than others.  As a rule, Marvel and DC's books looked better than Charlton or Red Circle (who had great artists and shabby printing).  During it's brief lifetime, Atlas could be hit - or - miss, with some of their books looking better than others.

Ah, Baxter.  That brings back memories.

Quote:
Today's shiny paper books? They make me feel like I should be wearing gloves. Hate that. 'Specially those Hellboys--they're all black!!


Shiny books = pure evil. 

Quote:
I'd like to come back to this, but briefly, I caught a little flack here over my recent decision to f it and just buy trade collections. Economics plays into it a lot. Lessee, I can get the first six issues of (say) All Star Superman for $12.99, less 20% off if I ask for it in advance. So, ten bucks for 6 comics I can put on my bookshelf versus $18.00 (OK, minus the 20%-- $16.00) for 6 individual fragile issues that won't be lying around my house separately getting vomited on by cats and would never appreciate in value anyway. Seems QED to me.


Oh God, these trade collections!  That's a rant in itself, and when I'm more awake and can organize my thoughts, I'll post that here later today when I get a chance.

__________________
"-Yet one cannot give that which has not been created. Creation comes before distribution - or there will be nothing to distribute. The Need of the creator comes before the need of any possible beneficiary. The creator stands above any humanitarian.

- No humanitarian ever has or can equal the benefits men recieved from a Thomas Edison or a Henry Ford."
-Any Rand, July 12, 1943
Fensterkind
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Posts: 75

    10/06/08 at 05:53 AM
Reply with quote#12

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff
Crap, I forgot Marshall Rogers!!! And Frank Brunner!

Rodgers I can forgive, but...Brunner?  You're grounded for the rest of the month!

__________________
"-Yet one cannot give that which has not been created. Creation comes before distribution - or there will be nothing to distribute. The Need of the creator comes before the need of any possible beneficiary. The creator stands above any humanitarian.

- No humanitarian ever has or can equal the benefits men recieved from a Thomas Edison or a Henry Ford."
-Any Rand, July 12, 1943
geoff
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Posts: 870

    10/07/08 at 09:20 PM
Reply with quote#13

Part of the "death" of individual issues ( for me) was the end of letter pages. Yes, I know some Marvel books still have 'em, but I don't read too many of those that aren't written by Joss Whedon. Heck, it used to be worth 2 bucks just to read the letters to Preacher, never mind the comic.

Plus, I hate ads. AND, I have completely given up on the hope that anything I buy will ever increase significantly in value, and I'm too old to remember everything that happened last month, much less 3 months ago in today's convoluted comics stories, so why not just read 'em all at once? (Por ejemplo, I recently read 52 in about a week-- maybe less. I guaran-darn-tee you I would have lost interest-- even on a weekly basis-- had I had to wait a frickin' year just to see what happened.)

(And Frank Brunner's Howard The Duck was rad. His Dr. Strange was purty drugged- up, too.)

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Fensterkind
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    10/08/08 at 03:10 PM
Reply with quote#14

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff
Wow, Fensterkind, you're bringing out my inner economist!!
I'd like to come back to this, but briefly, I caught a little flack here over my recent decision to f it and just buy trade collections. Economics plays into it a lot. Lessee, I can get the first six issues of (say) All Star Superman for $12.99, less 20% off if I ask for it in advance. So, ten bucks for 6 comics I can put on my bookshelf versus $18.00 (OK, minus the 20%-- $16.00) for 6 individual fragile issues that won't be lying around my house separately getting vomited on by cats and would never appreciate in value anyway. Seems QED to me.

OK.  It's time that I try to wrap up everything that I've been attempting to explain with this thread, and Geoff's comments about the trades mess is a good place to do it.  Since the beginning of this, I've been alluding here and there that the writing in today's comics is at the root of much of the industry's on - going decline, and exasperating the medium's increasingly poor cost / entertainment ratio.  The recent boom in collections is the most egregious example of this to date, and one that could prove to be the final nail in the coffin.
 
Of course, as you all know by now, I'm completely unable to make even the most minor point in less than 10 - 15,000 words, so I'm going to split this into two parts.
 
Here's the problem as I see it:  For decades, the rule for comics writers was that stories needed to be complete in each issue.  Multiple - issue storylines were exceedingly rare and, when they did appear, were treated as "events".  The reason for this was simply that a potential reader could pick up any book at anytime and become quickly familiar with it's contents.  He wasn't likely to come at the middle of a story and left to figure out what was going on.  This approach worked very well for the medium for around 30 years.
 
All that changed with Marvel in the early sixties, when Stan Lee combined Super Heroes with the interminable plot machinations of television soap operas.  Initially, this unusual hybrid worked rather well due to Lee's keeping his storylines reasonably contained.  A villain would be introduced and cause mayhem for a few issues - usually two and never more than three - and then be dispatched and a new villain brought in to keep things moving.  The soap opera elements were then used as unifying elements that would link all of these different plots united.  Spiderman's concern for the health of Aunt May being a well - known example.  To a lesser degree, Lee continued the earlier rules concerning storytelling, by making sure that a storyline didn't last too long and that a new reader could come in and not be lost by what was going on.
 
Where both Marvel and Lee failed was that new writers coming in where not held to that standard and plots started to become more complicated, making it difficult for new readers to pick up the books. Many of you will remember the increasing number of editor's notes that appeared in Marvel's books at that time, explaining to the reader what had happened in previous issues.  By the early to mid - seventies, the inherent flaw in Lee's original approach was apparent and the phenomenon of "continuity obsession" began rearing it's ugly head.  Readership was replaced by the cult of fandom, and comics' open - door  to the public at large began to close.
 
However, this wasn't as disastrous as it might have been, due to the fact that the industry's cost / entertainment ratio at that time was still pretty good ( comics were $0.20 or 10 % of the minimum wage, which was $2.00 in 1974) and a new reader wasn't out any serious money by investing in a new book.  If he was really lost, he could either seek out back issues - which could be difficult or pricey, depending on where he was - or just move on to another title.
 
But it was clear that the casual, or first - time reader was no longer being welcomed.  As the decade progressed, the cost / entertainment ratio worsened, due in no small part to the era's "stagflation", and the increasing tendency of the writer's to produce more and more complicated storylines.  Nearly every book then was being called an "epic" and the writer's appeared ready to do anything necessary to live up to that description, with often disappointing results.
 
Comics had fallen prey to the same problem that plagues soap operas and has contributed to their general decline over the years:  They finally become boring.  Storylines never resolve themselves and viewers get fed up and stop watching.  Unlike comics, however, television has a very high cost / entertainment ratio and new viewers can be counted on to start watching as old ones depart.  Even though the number of new viewers is declining, it is still sufficient to keep existing programs on the air.
 
With the creation of the Direct - Sales market, however, comics have almost completely disappeared from the public's radar and the number of new or casual readers has become microscopic.  The spinner rack in the local 7 - 11 was a pain in the ass for publishers, but it was a spectacular way to keep their product in front of the public and no one has come up with anything that comes close to matching it.  For most people, when the spinner rack disappeared, so did comics.  Comic shops don't exist everywhere, since many communities aren't large enough to support them.  An entire generation has now grown up that's hardly even had the chance to see a comic book.
 
Ironically, the Direct - Sales market saved the industry, not because books were sold on a non - returnable basis, but because it temporarily reversed the downward slide of the cost / entertainment ratio.  Even though a number of the books created for this market were more expensive than their newsstand counterparts, they were being sold to an audience that was more than happy to pay the price being asked.  For a few years, some great comics were produced whose content rose to meet this newly raised ratio.  This was the time of the pre - "Church & State" Cerebus, "American Flagg!", "Nexus", "Love & Rockets", "Journey" and others.  At the same time, several publisher's, inspired no doubt by the success of magazines like "Heavy Metal" and "Epic Illustrated" (There's that word again!) decided that all comics should look like those publications, and they began using the same printing processes used for them.  The market, still having a high tolerance for cost, supported these efforts as well.
 
Sadly, this little golden age couldn't last as the bad habits of the previous decade soon reasserted themselves, and "epic - ism", with it's soap - opera obsessions once again became the norm. Even the once magnificent books I've just mentioned fell prey to it, especially "Love & Rockets" and "Cerebus".  When the infamous "comics glut" wracked the market in '86 & '87, the cost / entertainment ratio was once again reversed and many of the publishers who specialized in upscale printing collapsed.  Eclipse, First, Pacific and Comico soon became things of the past and portended the shape of things to come.  Since that time, the ratio has continued to deteriorate until we have finally reached the sad state of affairs today.
 
In spite of all of this, comics publishers appear to be no wiser in dealing with the situation.  In fact, they have now added insult to injury with the current rash of reprint books.
 
End of Part One
 
Next, Fenster finally makes his point.  There may also be nekkid ladies, with lot's of naughty, jiggly bits.

__________________
"-Yet one cannot give that which has not been created. Creation comes before distribution - or there will be nothing to distribute. The Need of the creator comes before the need of any possible beneficiary. The creator stands above any humanitarian.

- No humanitarian ever has or can equal the benefits men recieved from a Thomas Edison or a Henry Ford."
-Any Rand, July 12, 1943
Fensterkind
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Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 75

    10/10/08 at 10:05 AM
Reply with quote#15

Part Two
 
The Comic Book Tax
 
Let me begin here by saying that I'm not opposed to reprinted comic collections per se.  I fully support Marvel's ESSENTIAL and DC's SHOWCASE lines and happily purchase them when my finances permit.  The collections have focused primarily on titles from the '60's and early '70's, many of which are either unavailable as back issues, or, if available, are somewhat expensive.  They are reasonably priced and allow the reader to indulge in nostalgia until their heart's content.  In fact, the only complaint I have about them is that they're too slow to come out with new editions, and haven't expanded to include titles from previous decades.
 
The reprints that raise my ire, and that could ultimately destroy comic books, are these full - color collections currently being produced primarily by DC and Dark Horse.  Many, like Geoff, view these as a great way to read comics and they're right.  I've enjoyed them myself, on occasion.  However, I've come to understand that what these collections represent is a form of taxation that publishers have figured out how to levy on comics readers, with all of the attendant drawbacks.  Think I'm crazy?  Read on.
 
To help illustrate my point, I'm going to need to stray a little far - afield and enter the realm of politics (don't worry:  it will begin to make sense before long).  There is an economic truism that taxation suppresses activity.  The more you tax a product or activity, the less you will have of it since the public will be less willing to pay the increased cost.  For their part, the public always does one of two things to deal with increased taxes they don't wish to pay: They will cease using the product or service being taxed - which leads to decreased economic activity - or they will find a way to obtain the product or service without paying the tax - which is what fuels black - markets and other potentially unsavory activities.  Both of these approaches inevitably lead to less taxes being collected than hoped - for.
 
A sterling example of this is the recent cigarette tax fiasco in Tennessee.  In 2007, the governor and several lawmakers - along with the usual coterie of anti - tobacco zealots - decided that it would be just nifty to raise the tax on cigarettes in order to fund a slew of expensive new programs, including providing health - care to the children of low - income families (despite the fact that these children were already eligible for TennCare - another government sponsored fiasco).  As a result of this, the cigarette tax was raised $0.42 a pack, making the total tax a whopping $0.62 per pack, higher than the tax of any of it's eight neighboring states.  The result was predictable:  A few gave up smoking.  Others clenched their teeth and paid the increased price.  The rest, including myself, screamed "Screw that!" and began buying our cigarettes across the border.  The results have been unfortunate.  Throughout the state, many once prosperous tobacco stores have had to close their doors due to the sharp decrease in trade.  A black - market in cigarettes is now flourishing in the state, resulting in more funds being spent in an attempt to enforce the tax.  As for the anticipated revenues that the bureaucrats were lusting after, they haven't appeared. Collections ran 62.3 million less than predicted during the first year, making cut - backs necessary.
 
For anyone with the most basic understanding of economics and the principle of cause and effect, this outcome was predictable.  Unfortunately, politicians don't deal with such realities, but live in a world of favors granted to the currently most powerful special interests (Indeed, pitting one group against another is the goal most passionately sought by them). 
 
So, what in the world has any of this to do with comic reprints?  Believe it or not, the situations share parallels.  Like governments, comics publishers are always looking for ways to get more money (not an unreasonable pursuit for a business, since that's what they're made for), but when businesses begin using an approach that would be envied by governments, then you've got a Hell of a problem.
 
Over the past decade or so, the industry has targeted two separate groups of consumers: The dedicated comics buyer who transacts his trade at the local comic shop and the casual comics buyer who prefers to make his purchases in bookstores.  Now, getting comics into bookstores has been the wet - dream of the industry ever since the collapse of the old newsstand system, since it has always been believed that this would be the best way to get comics back in front of the general public.  Like the comic shop patron, bookstore customers have a higher price tolerance than average, so they seemed like an ideal market.  However, it quickly became apparent that this tolerance did not extend to comic books, so the early efforts to get comics in bookstores met with little success.
 
Until the publishers began producing the reprint collections.  In spite of these collections being available in comic shops, it is clear that bookstores were the intended market for these items, and it must be admitted that they have done very well there.  Now, on the surface, this might seem to be cause for celebration.  True success stories in comics have become increasingly rare and any turnaround in the medium's fortunes should be enthusiastically embraced, right?
 
Not the way publishers are now playing the game.  Consider:  They aren't just confining themselves to titles published decades ago, but books that came out within the last few years - in some cases last year.  As a result of this quick turnaround from comic books to reprint collections, the stories being produced are now being written with collections in mind, rather than what best serves individual issues.  These books now all appear underwritten and the pacing of many very uneven, making the reading experience more and more unsatisfying.  However, the publishers must continue producing the individual issues in order to have something to bundle into their expanding number of collections.  They also use the income of the individual books to pay for their production costs, which includes the pay of the creative team working on the title.  They cannot fore go the individual comic books in favor of books, because they would have a much higher production cost than present and, therefore be much less profitable.  So, like politicians, they have figured out how to cater to one market at the expense of another.  They've come up with an unofficial tax on comic books.
 
Here's how:  Sitting before me is my copy of the 7th volume of "The Books of Magic".  This item retails for $19.95 ($32.95 in Canada, but who really cares what Canadians pay?), and it reprints 9 issues of the original comic title.  Now, I don't know what these issues originally cost, but let's assume a $2.99 cover price, which would be true of any collection published this year or the next.  The price of all of those issues would be $26.91.  If you subtract this amount from the price of the collection, you have a total tax of $6.96 that you have paid to DC comics to subsidize those readers who's C/E ratio is lower than yours!
 
It gets worse.  These collections also feature additional goodies, such as interviews or pages of original sketches that were never included in the individual comics.  So, the subsidized readers get even more than the non - subsidized readers!
 
So, what is the incentive to keep reading comic books?  There isn't one. The publishers themselves are discouraging the activity with their tax and the continuing decline in sales proves it.  Fans like Geoff are doing what the smokers in Tennessee have done and said "Screw it!  I'll buy the collections and avoid the tax!"
 
But, here's the problem:  If people stop buying the comic books, what are they going to produce collections with?  Like it or not, the comic book remains the foundation of the medium, and if you get rid of it, you get rid of the industry.
 
And that's it.  I think I'm finally done.

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"-Yet one cannot give that which has not been created. Creation comes before distribution - or there will be nothing to distribute. The Need of the creator comes before the need of any possible beneficiary. The creator stands above any humanitarian.

- No humanitarian ever has or can equal the benefits men recieved from a Thomas Edison or a Henry Ford."
-Any Rand, July 12, 1943
geoff
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    10/10/08 at 08:53 PM
Reply with quote#16

Hi Fen,

(Can I call you that? Thanks.) Methinks I smell a master's thesis here!!

I believe Mr. Salinger was about to go off on me about my switch to trades a while back, but the "waitress" must have distracted him. But I think (feel free to correct me here, Ted) his point was gonna be if people quit buying individual comics issues, they'll soon no longer be published at all. Which may be correct. But, in "real" terms, they're already not being published in numbers that really justify their existence. Marvel and DC, and probably Dark Horse to a lesser degree, are pretty much just development houses for Warner Brothers and Marvel Studios. I can't believe that the incredibly small numbers of individual comic books sold to weirdos like ourselves could possibly support the editorial/ marketing/ etc. staffs of the big two. But figure in box office receipts for "Iron Man" or "Dark Knight" or "Hellboy 2" , and attendant merchandising, and they're staying afloat.

And since we're talking about comics, I'm going to bite my tongue on the "socialized medicine" stuff.

Peace out.

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tedsalinger
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    10/13/08 at 10:24 PM
Reply with quote#17

If anyone has insomnia, just read this Thread from post #1.
GOOD LORD!
Fensterkind, if we were having coffee and you started in on this 'chump-change' tirade,...I'd be climbing out the bathroom window.
Or!, I'd have to give the bottom of your coffee cup a little nudge while you were drinking out of it and you'd be Two-Face from your upper lip down.

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ted sallinger
Fensterkind
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Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 75

    10/14/08 at 11:05 AM
Reply with quote#18

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedsalinger
If anyone has insomnia, just read this Thread from post #1.
GOOD LORD!
Fensterkind, if we were having coffee and you started in on this 'chump-change' tirade,...I'd be climbing out the bathroom window.
Or!, I'd have to give the bottom of your coffee cup a little nudge while you were drinking out of it and you'd be Two-Face from your upper lip down.


Oh, well here, Ted.  Perhaps this will be more to your liking.  Besides, I did promise this a few posts ago, and I'd hate to be considered a big tease!



The Sad Plight of Martha Whittlebroom
 
Or
 
 "The Unfulfilled Warrior"
 
Martha Whittlebroom pressed her naked body against the glass of her living room window, as she had done every single afternoon for the last 12 years.  She did this without enthusiasm, as the activity had long ceased to arouse in her any sense of personal accomplishment.  In her more introspective moments, she had to admit to herself that it never really had, yet she was certain that this was something that she simply must do.  So, every afternoon at 4 o'clock sharp, she stripped off all of her clothing and pressed herself against the window for 30 minutes or so, regardless of the temperature of the glass.  During that time, she gamely rubbed the skin of her breasts, stomach and bottom against the smooth surface, brazenly exposing her endowments to the entire world.  Or at least that part of the world that - she prayed - happened to look into her window.
 
It should be pointed out that Ms. Whittlebroom was not performing this odd ritual for any erotic personal gratification (Sorry, Ted. - F).  Far from it, in fact.  For her, this was political; a glorious act of civil disobedience against the oppression of Imperialistic Paternalism.  This was the thought that she silently repeated to herself while listening to the squeek of her skin as it rubbed against the glass.  It was knowing that her act of exhibitionism helped to advance the progress of women everywhere that had sustained her in her lonely struggle through those long years.
 
She had not arrived at this belief on her own.  It had all begun 12 years earlier when the postman had accidentally delivered to her apartment a package that had been intended for one of her neighbors, a rather surly young woman named Hulga Pulliam.  Martha disliked Ms. Pulliam - she shaved her head and never brushed her teeth - and resolved not to deliver the package to her.  She was, however, curious about what might be in the package and decided to open it and see.  Inside was a copy of the political manifesto of "The Radioactively Naked Lesbian Warriors for The Complete Liberation of All Oppressed Womyn Everywhere Regardless of Their Color!", or TRNLWFTCLOAOWEROTC for short.  Intrigued, Martha began reading.
 
Now, Martha had been exposed to little in the way of political thought, save for what she was able to pick up from watching re - runs of "Designing Women" and "The West Wing".  As a result, she was often mystified by the manifesto, particularly the chapters entitled "The Myth of the Multiple - Orgasm in The Nuclear Age", and "Looking for Princess Goodbar", both of which contained numerous terms and expressions she was unable to find in her copy of The Random House College Dictionary (the abridged edition).  Nevertheless, the tone of the booklet fired her imagination, and she was able to glean enough of the theory so that, by the third page, she knew that she wanted nothing more in life than to be a radioactively naked warrior for oppressed womyn!  She was less sold on the lesbian part, but she hoped that the group might waive that requirement.
 
But...how could Martha Whittlebroom go about actually becoming a radioactively naked warrior?  The TRNLWFTCLOAOWEROTC had neglected to list their address or phone number anywhere in the manifesto (a serious flaw in that particular edition, which resulted in a disappointing membership drive for the organization that year).  She feared that the revolution promised within the pages of the little booklet was going bypass her completely, until, happily, on the ninth and final page, she came upon the final chapter titled,  "What Can You Do?"  What followed were the fateful words that were to change her life:
 
"Get Naked!  Nothing threatens the Paternalistic, Imperialistic, Sexist, Racist, Homophobic Capitalist order more than the sight of an unapologetically naked womyn in their midst!  There are no guns, bombs or armies that can match the sheer destructive power of your naked breasts and bum, your smooth belly, your unshaved pits or unshorn legs to the fascist power structure!  Throw off the fabric shackles that the hateful male race has bound you with and expose yourself!  Confront them with the radioactive strength of your flesh, that they may either be liberated from their ignorant, illiterate, obscene and obstinate opinions or wither and die on the spot!
 
Understand, however, that it won't always be easy!  The foot - soldiers and defenders of the Paternalistic, Imperialistic, Sexist, Racist, Homophobic Capitalist order aren't all lightweights!  Some have had lead injected into their veins and can resist the power of your nakedness!  The duller ones will simply be aroused to lust for you!  Don't submit!  Others will point and scream and call for the police to come and drag you away!  Allow them to take you, but use that opportunity to scream as loud as you can, so that your oppressed sisters can hear you and see that the revolution is at long last at hand!"
 
Martha could read no further.  She didn't have to.  Here at last was her life's purpose.  Finally, some invisible voice had reached out to her and told her what she needed to do!  "Get Naked!", she had been exhorted to do, and this she did, flinging her clothe's carelessly about her living room.  "Exposed yourself!", she had been ordered.  This gave her a moment's pause, since there was no one in the apartment with her, save the ten cats and two ferrets who were her bosom companions and were, therefore, used to the sight of her naked flesh.  Then, inspiration struck her:  Of course!  Her living - room window.  The whole world could see her if she showed herself there!  Without another thought, she flung aside the drapes and pressed herself against the glass!
 
Thus began the happiest thiry minutes of Martha's life (She knew it was thirty minutes, since her favorite show, "Designing Women" had just started on the TV, and she stayed at the window until it was over).  For that entire time, she rubbed herself with wild abandon against the window.  She giggled and closed her eyes, imagining the commotion that the sight of her must be causing outside.  She imagined the shocked expressions, the pointing fingers, the sense of liberation the sight of her must be inspiring in some and instant horrible death for others.  She felt...radioactive!  Wonderfully, deliriously radioactive!  She began singing the lyrics to "Oops!  I did it again!", which was the only song she had heard and enjoyed on the radio in years.  As she sang, she began remembering that the sight of her might inspire lust among some of the men gazing at her and her thoughts took a decidedly immodest turn, which need not be elaborated on here (Sorry, Ted - F).
 
When the thirty minutes were up, and her program was signing off, it was an exhausted and thoroughly satisfied Martha who closed her drapes and went to stand, sweating and panting, before the door to her apartment.  She had resolved to face boldly the police who were no doubt on their way to arrest her at any moment, along with the finger - pointing defenders of the Paternalistic, Imperialistic, Sexist, Racist, Homophobic Capitalist order.  She was still standing there two hours later, wondering what had become of the howling mob that she had been so certain would appear at her door.
 
She was, quite frankly, deeply bewildered by this development.  How was this possible?  Hadn't the TRNLWFTCLOAOWEROTC promised that she would be arrested?  Wasn't she now a dangerous Radioactively Naked (not really) Lesbian Warrior for The Complete Liberation of All Oppressed Womyn Everywhere Regardless of Their Color!"?  She would ponder this for another hour before she finally hit on a likely explanation:  There must be hundreds of warriors throughout the city who must have exposed themselves at the same time she did, and the defenders of the status quo must simply have their hands full trying to cope with all of them!  Of course!  That had to be the answer!  They just hadn't had a chance to get to her yet, but certainly would at the earliest opportunity.
 
As it approached four o'clock the next day, she worried that she had perhaps been forgotten about, and resolved that she should repeat her demonstration.  She owed it to her fellow Warriors to carry on the struggle, after all.  So, she did, with the same disappointing results as the previous day.  She wondered if she was perhaps doing something wrong, that there might be some detail she was overlooking but, for the life of her she couldn't think of what it might be.  Nevertheless, she knew that she had been promised a specific outcome by the TRNLWFTCLOAOWEROTC and she trusted their word implicitly!  She would soldier on and continue her defiance until the defenders of the Paternalistic, Imperialistic, Sexist, Racist, Homophobic Capitalist order noticed!
 
Thus began Martha's lonely, twelve - year struggle against oppression.  Every day at four o'clock she exposed herself before the window, and every day, no outraged mob appeared.  But, Martha Whittlebroom was made of iron, and would never give up the struggle for which she had dedicated her life!
 
* * *
 
It occurs to me that many, including dear Ted, might be overcome with sorrow for poor Martha's plight and it is to prevent such suffering on the reader's part that I now take this opportunity to step in and provide some much - needed context for this tale.
 
Martha's struggle had lasted 12 years.  It is almost a certainty that it would continue for 12 more for, as some of you may have already observed, she wasn't the sharpest crayon in the box.  As some of you have no doubt figured out, there was, in fact, a detail about her daily demonstrations that she had overlooked and tended to diminish their impact.  Had the ten cats and two ferrets with whom she shared her apartment possessed the power of human speech, they might have been able to helpfully point out that, since Martha lived on the 27th floor of her apartment building, it was nearly impossible for anyone to actually see into her living room.  They could also have pointed out that if she wished to continue her demonstrations in the apartment, then perhaps she should consider distributing flyers or placing an ad in the paper telling people to look up to her living room window at the critical moment. 
 
Of course, she might also have simply considered taking the elevator down and carrying out her demonstration in the parking lot, where seeing her would have been less of a challenge.  But, as has already been stated, Ms. Whittlebroom's bulb burned exceedingly dim.
 
But, it may be said that it was for the best that Martha's efforts met with so little success.  If she had achieved her heart's desire, the reaction might have been much less than she had hoped for.  Certain unsympathetic commentators might point out that, having decided to live exclusively on a diet of twinkies at the age of 13, Martha Whittlebroom had developed rather more flesh than was necessary for her purpose.
 
However, I will leave such churlish commentary to chroniclers less charitable than I.
 

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"-Yet one cannot give that which has not been created. Creation comes before distribution - or there will be nothing to distribute. The Need of the creator comes before the need of any possible beneficiary. The creator stands above any humanitarian.

- No humanitarian ever has or can equal the benefits men recieved from a Thomas Edison or a Henry Ford."
-Any Rand, July 12, 1943
tedsalinger
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    10/16/08 at 01:49 AM
Reply with quote#19

ME nO ReAD.
No pIKtUREZ....so,
mE nO rEAd.
slEEp cIty.

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ted sallinger
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    10/20/08 at 10:51 PM
Reply with quote#20

Can anyone do a 'Cliff's Notes 'on this thing for me?


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DavidFourFingers
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Registered: 10/20/04
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    10/21/08 at 12:58 PM
Reply with quote#21

I'm rehashing a lot of what has been said, but I think the value of todays comics (at least the ones I buy) are far greater than that of older work.  Glossy pages and superior coloration do not a good book make.  I read for the story primarily.  I buy almost exclusively by the author, and I think that 90% of the books on the shelf at any point are utter drek.  I'm glad those books sell and I'm glad they are enjoyed by someone, it keeps the medium alive and well and it takes all kinds to make the world go round.  If we are to judge the medium by what sells the best, I'm not sure we have much improvement as a matter of fact.  However, if you compare the best of then to the best of now, I don't think its even a competition.

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tedsalinger
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    10/28/08 at 10:57 PM
Reply with quote#22

DUSHKU!


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ted sallinger
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Posts: 75

    10/30/08 at 11:13 AM
Reply with quote#23

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidFourFingers
I'm rehashing a lot of what has been said, but I think the value of todays comics (at least the ones I buy) are far greater than that of older work.  Glossy pages and superior coloration do not a good book make.  I read for the story primarily.  I buy almost exclusively by the author, and I think that 90% of the books on the shelf at any point are utter drek.
 

No argument there.  I've found myself gravitating to books written by Bill Willingham and Matthew Sturges lately.  Neither of them can be accused of under - writing their books. 

Quote:
   However, if you compare the best of then to the best of now, I don't think its even a competition.


Examples?

__________________
"-Yet one cannot give that which has not been created. Creation comes before distribution - or there will be nothing to distribute. The Need of the creator comes before the need of any possible beneficiary. The creator stands above any humanitarian.

- No humanitarian ever has or can equal the benefits men recieved from a Thomas Edison or a Henry Ford."
-Any Rand, July 12, 1943
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